Okay, so I felt like we should talk about when to make a move.
And I felt like we should talk about this because you give really great advice to people in your network about when they should be looking for an opportunity in their career, when to create an opportunity in your career, and also just want to buckle down and do a phenomenal job with the work that they're doing or, you know, in their existing job. But you also help people do both at the same time. And I've always found that to be quite difficult, because I have a hard time concentrating on two things at once. And I think a lot of people do. And so I was interested, and what your thoughts were about that? How do you how do you or how do you advise people and help them understand when to make the move?
I think I think good question. Thanks.
Thought.
I actually think that the right time to make a move is all the time. Okay. And I think that's why that's where the premise of my advice comes from. Because movement is not about moving to a new position, but it's moving in a direction. So when I think about making a move, it's like in your career, you're always making a move. Even if you're choosing to stay at the place you're in the job that you're in, or the company that you're in, you're always making a move. If you're not making a move, then I think that leads to dissatisfaction, it leads to a lack of advancement, it leads to all kinds of things. So making a move is not just moving from one job to the next is just directionally saying I'm going somewhere beyond this current state. And my advice is usually based on that, because each person's make a move, can feel like a different thing can look like a different thing. Depending on where you are in your career, depending on the company, depending on what you want to do with your your education, depending on it really has so many different factors that a person has to consider. So it's not just like, I'm gonna go from a, a job to B job. It's like I'm directionally taking myself, my career, and where I am in the state of my career, and I'm exploring that movement beyond the current state that I'm in. If the thing that that I think people struggle with is they often what people get nervous about, it's like, you think that making a move, it's like, I have to start to look for a new job. So people often get, you know, concerned, scared, afraid of like the job search process, because they're like, Oh, if I have to make a move, then it means that I have to go and I have to explore, I have to look, I have to talk to recruiters that update my resume, I have to do LinkedIn. And there's these, all of these I have to dues, right. And when you start to build up the task list of what I have to do to make a move, then you find that people remain stagnant. Versus if you're like, hey, you know, today, I just want to think of what a better version of my professional self will look like tomorrow, and you move towards that better version of your professional self tomorrow, then you're constantly making a move in your career, so you're never stagnant. And then that actually prepares you for the real long term career trajectory, or the real long term career growth because you're making moves incrementally versus one monumental move like one big move, you're just like making a move. You know?
That's really good. So. So don't concentrate on the position, concentrate on defining and pursuing a direction. And I guess what I also heard in that, in that explanation, or what stood out to me, was the idea that if you do end up focusing on a position that process becomes all of a sudden becomes a huge task list. And it feels overwhelming or like an insurmountable challenge. Do you find that that is the trap that people fall into when it comes to thinking about a move for there are other obstacles that you experience when you counsel people on this sort of thing.
I mean, lesson learned, I counsel people just by in general just like talking to people about where they want to go, right, because I just like talking to people about what they want to do, because if you focus on the position, the position will always disappoint, the position will always disappoint, but the direction will never disappoint. The direction will never disappoint, because that is the place where you align your purpose, your passion and your intention. And so the the the idea that you're always on your way there, right, on your way to a directional mark, that you want to find fulfillment in your career removes the burden of both one, finding the position and to the expectations that you set on finding the next position. So when you think about like, why people leave jobs are why people, you know, may want to make a move from one place to the next, it's usually surrounds dissatisfaction of some sort, like dissatisfaction with a manager dissatisfaction with the, with the company values or dissatisfaction with professional development or growth opportunities, it's always aligned with some form of dissatisfaction. But if you set your intention on the satisfaction being a progressive direction you're heading in, then you place like so much less weight on the position, and you just placed so much less expectations on that, and on the company and on the manager and on the culture. And really, the expectation is just set on where you're directionally going. And this is not to disqualify the fact that people, you know, need to feed their families and need to earn a living. But, you know, you don't want to earn a living at the cost of your own wellbeing, because you're, you're constantly overwhelmed or stressed about the next move. And there's so much banking on the next move that you you actually start to even make probably poor decisions about the next job, because you're setting expectations on what the physician can do, in terms of alleviating some of the displeasure that you may have, or the things that you're experiencing dissatisfaction in, instead of focusing on what directional satisfaction would feel like if you make a move, right? And then it makes it like a lot easier when you are interviewing a lot easier when you're having conversations about a job. Because I can tell you, when I'm interviewing with folks, I can tell when they are, they're feeling anxious, or they're feeling pressured, or they're feeling nervous, you know, like, this is their last opportunity, or this is one of the only opportunities when in fact, when the organization is interviewing you, you're interviewing them, because, you know, we need you as much as you need us. And so you can tell when people walk into to something, and it just feels like they have a lot at stake. Yeah. And it, it makes it a very, it makes it a more challenging interview process because you're responding under stress. And so sometimes your answers are not probably in alignment with a person that is more relaxed and feels, you know, a little bit more reasonable about the expectation that they've set on the position. It's not like make it or break it. This is the last the last option I have. So yeah.
Well, we don't like I know that you and I, we've always had to feed our family. So we've always had to feed our family. Yeah. Have you Kid Hungry? And I, but I don't I mean, we've all I think part of the reason why. I mean, so that's a brilliant part of what you're saying is that it? I think our journey is kind of a testimony to that in a lot of ways too, because we've pursued purpose. I don't know that we've pursued I can't remember a time where we've been like, Oh, we got to get this position or that position. And even when I say stuff to you, like you know, you know what, you know What kind of title do you want, I bring up stuff like that, that doesn't interest you
doesn't interest me at all. That actually, that makes me more that makes me more less disengaged in any kind of process, because it's like, tell me the title you want, tell me the Emirates, you know, I'm not looking for those things. I'm directionally looking for my, you know, like, my North Star is, as you would call it,
oh, you're my North Star like you, you're my North Star.
So I'm like, I'm not looking for and in the title will, you know, the those things will come as a result of satisfaction. Because you know, you already there's so much that speaks to people's work performance, their health, their happiness, when they feel satisfied in what they're doing. And satisfaction can come in so many different ways. As you kind of look at an employee experience, employee engagement, people might find satisfaction and more money, they might find satisfaction in a good culture, they might find satisfaction in the in the title, but you have to, you know, you have to want to be doing what you're doing. Yeah. Even at least 50% of the time to find fulfillment and to find direction. So
Oh, at least 50% of the time. I mean, like I'm unemployable any other way? Like, it's like, I've I feel like I have to be doing something like that thing. You know, whatever it is that the direction I think I like, I like that direction. Not the it's not the positions the direction so much, because I like, that resonates with me, because I'm just and I feel like this is for probably true for a lot of people, we just end up falling into those traps about position and title, because I don't know, I want to ask you about more about that. But like, when I wake up in the morning, I'm not I don't want to be like, oh, I want to go beat this position. I like have things I want to accomplish and do or like, things that I enjoy doing that I want to pursue? I would assume that's the case for everybody. Or for most people that we got to.
Yeah, I mean, like, what do you ask? I remember, like, in the pandemic, like, in the middle of the pandemic, when people were experiencing, companies were like, experiencing a great resignation. And people were resigning. And they were saying things like, Oh, I'm gonna go be a yoga instructor. I was, I was Chief Technology Officer. But now I'm going to go be a yoga instructor or I used to be, you know, a bio bio engineer, and I'm going to be a teacher, or like a CFO, and I'm gonna be a teacher, you started to see people really gravitating towards a North Star, when they were in isolation, when they were away from the career, the title, the positions, the the, the influence of the culture, the peers, and left alone to your own thoughts in your own heart, you started to see people kind of move towards that. And, you know, I remember time I went into it was a local, so went to Lowe's. And it was right around the time when stores started to open up. And the employee demographic of those that were working at the front desk, or the register, it ranged from, you know, people of all different walks of life and different abilities. And they were just, they were, they were so happy. You know, I remember a time before that when folks in retail were not so happy. And the whole team was happy. And, you know, I started to ask them like, oh, you know, how long have you been here, some people had come out of retirement. Some people weren't college grads, some people were in college. It just was this very diverse demographic of individuals. And they chose that place because they felt comfortable, they felt that it was a good place to make a living and a good culture and, you know, may not have made sense to some folks why you want to leave a big CFL title to be
to work at a Lowe's or work in the
garden. And again, this is not, this is not this is not a judgment or a weight on one profession over the other. But again, if we were to look at like titles and Money has indicators of ultimate success, or the Northstar or the directional positionality of a person, we really can miss it. I
mean, was a big thing at that particular point in time when everybody was coming back to work, and people just wanted to go and see new people, right, like, just just be I mean, not everybody, but I assume there's a pretty large segment of folks that wanted to get back out there. And just be in a social workplace or retail environment, you're going to be around a lot of people. And retail is hard. And especially it's hard at that particular time, but they needed to hire people fast. So they were hiring everybody, people had to come out. People wanted to get out of the house from wanting to get involved in different careers, or just any kind of work whatsoever when they're around people. And so you get that, that mix, but that's, but the same things like I'm seeing, you know, I've seen, like news reports and stuff like today about, you know, six ways to, I think there was like a Good Morning America thing that came up when I was at the gym, and it was like six ways to address loneliness in your life. Right. And it's just, it's interesting, like, we're still having these segments about how lonely people are. Right. And today, and that being a huge factor in our social life in this country and in elsewhere. And, you know, yet at the same time, you know, like, we've forgotten about how good it was to get back out of lockdown and go be around people or go to events or I don't know, that's, but that's, I mean, a big part of purpose for a lot of people is you socializing and being around people? Well, I
think, I think that is why the loneliness Quotient or the loneliness, statistics, I think that's why it doesn't necessarily make sense because, or, to most, it wouldn't make sense, because you would think that because now people are going back out and being around people that they're not lonely. But again, this is less about position and about direction, right? Because you can still feel very lonely and isolated, in a job with a big title, and a great position. And your career looks great, but you're not surrounded by those that are speaking into your directional purpose. Yeah. So for those people that made the intentional decision, because, you know, I know that people, companies were looking for more more individuals to, to work and, you know, work in different industries, like retail, but I actually believe that these individuals chose those positions at the time of the great resignation was really a time when you could apply for almost any job and not have like any experience and get the job. You were like, interviewing the mechanic for the, you know, the carpentry job, people needed people needed people and they were willing to train up so that we could fill the unemployment gap, but but the point I'm making is that there is still I mean, the indication that there's still this kind of massive experience of cultural loneliness, even at a time when companies have gone to hybrid models, not fully remote models, but hybrid models, where people are able to go back to work and engage still speaks to this, you know, when do you really make a move? And is the movement really an external thing? I think that happens outside of you? Or is the movement and an internal thing that happens inside, where you make a choice to move towards, you know, a purposeful direction that will make you feel as fulfilled as possible, and will make you feel supported and accepted in an environment that fosters something deeper in you than just just a title?
Yeah, well, we I mean, we know from the data like Gallup does the poll the state of the workforce poll every year right, like you know, people don't leave jobs, they leave their managers and we know that people will stay longer at a job if they have at least one good friend on staff like that, that they work with on a daily basis once a month, somebody that they feel is a friend. And so I mean, a lot of work is not a lot of work, jobs, etc. They're not It's not like a Purpose filled job like, not everyone's gonna go work at, you know, not everyone signed up to be a public school teacher, right? Like, where, you know, you might be a school teacher, more than likely because you find a ton of purpose in teaching and teaching and helping students become their best selves, right. But you know, not every job is, you know, something like that. And even for some teachers, Teaching isn't the job that they thought it was going to be in terms of fulfillment and purpose and stuff like that. And so you know, I think having healthy, you know, having a lot of friends or having friends or feeling like you, at least have somebody that you can relate to on the job, that goes a long way in terms of making you feel better about being in the right place. But is that not a direction, or
some part of the human condition is that we have to exist with each other. And we, we desire, and we need community. And, you know, they're just all of these studies that come out about what adds to longevity in life, what what makes you healthier, and always wanting to is whether you have a healthy community. Like always, whether you have a healthy community and kind of, you know, that leads back to what you were just saying about having one friend at work. It's less about like having a friend. But again, having someone that shares some kind of commonality with you, yeah, that you start to feel like community is there, right?
If you work, if you look for a job, you're gonna find some random company, but if you, if you look for a community, you're more likely going to find friends, and you're more likely going to find purpose and way of doing it.
You know, whenever I have gone for an interview, and I interview with the leadership team, I always ask myself that question. Internally, I asked myself this question, when they're interviewing, and they're, you know, throwing all of their strategic questions, and can you do this part of the job can do that part of the job? I always ask myself the question when I listen, and I pay attention to the culture, Are these my people? I could I see myself sitting amongst these people and feeling like there's a place for me. And if I don't feel that, I pull right out, I will pull right out over interview process. No, no,
I just I'm looking at your face.
Because it's not worth it. Yeah, it won't be worth it. Because I will most likely excel at the competencies. I will most likely excel at the job functionality. But if I don't feel connectivity, according to all the studies, Harvard studies, all this study about workplace culture and about feeling well, it's not going to be worth it. So I'm moving away from my Northstar, moving away from that directional purpose.
So you got to find your people to find your purpose. Find your people. I heard a remind me of a nice little cool little nugget. I heard from the entrepreneur, UK entrepreneur Simon Squibb. And he has the doing a lot of or he does a lot of advising around business ownership. And he talks about hiring people and he said if you hire for purpose, you you'll significantly reduce any kind of performance management issues you ever come up against. If you're hiring people who share the same purpose
so if you were advising people on thinking about making the move, one of the key things Things you're probably people need to consider is who are your people? That's what makes working with you so easy.
Oh my gosh. I cannot honestly can't say that. I'm advising people to make the move. Yeah. I just asked them what their leadership journey has been like, what is their professional journey has? How has it been? And what has it been like? And I asked them to reflect on that. When you start to reflect on that, then you start to see, most of the times we actually have directional purpose. But but we get into a state where an institution or a mindset or something happens in our life and career that shifts us away from that. Yeah. And then you just have to kind of shake that box again, and then get people to start to think explorative ly, about that direction or purpose. And scary. Yeah, but I haven't had a person that I've advised that hasn't been fulfilled or happy as a result of their decisions. Even if the decision is not to move upward in their career ladder, even if the decision is so move outward. If it's due entrepreneurship, it's to just, it's to do the thing that is directionally calling them. And I'm not saying it is easy. No. I don't want to make it sound easy. It's progressive. Well, it's
two kinds of hard right? You either choose the hard where you're doing some soul sucking job that where you don't feel a sense of purpose. And you could have the title, you could have the money, like you said, but you cut you're just exhausted because you're not fulfilling whatever it is, that's your direction. Or you could choose the other heart which is taking the risks, stepping out finding your people and doing and taking the step to go where your direction is leading me
that's a good choice. Good place to come back to next time. Thanks for good out of office
you have fun
appreciate
it
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